SUA + SRP, some questions...

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SUA + SRP, some questions...

Post by Sadeghi85 on 30/7/2010, 18:32

OK, I'm trying SUA + SRP for the first time on 7 32-bit. Very Happy Two things I noticed are: 1) It's better to create the Standard account immediately after fresh install of Windows and 2) Put UAC at max setting.

I'm not sure if I got the above correct, but I see many apps I installed in the admin account aren't shown in the start menu and without UAC, "right click->Run as Administrator" is useless(i.e. does nothing).

But here is a question, How can I install certain apps like "VirusTotal Uploader"?

In this case, if I install it as Admin, it doesn't create the "send to" shortcut for Standard account, if I install it normally it can't copy it's files to "Program Files" folder. So what's the solution?


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Re: SUA + SRP, some questions...

Post by ssj100 on 30/7/2010, 18:41

What sort of programs are you not seeing in the start menu? They are likely to be old or poorly written programs. All programs should be written to function well/normally in a limited user account by now.

I don't understand what exactly is the problem with the installation of "VirusTotal Uploader" - the only way I'll be able to help is to install Windows 7 in my VM and try reproducing your issues by installing "VirusTotal Uploader" myself. I'll try getting on to it in the next few days. Perhaps someone else will have resolved your issue by then. It would be galling if a program like "VirusTotal Uploader" doesn't function smoothly in a limited user account.

Anyway, please do a bump if I forget.

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Re: SUA + SRP, some questions...

Post by Sadeghi85 on 30/7/2010, 19:03

They are likely to be old or poorly written programs.

Yes, certainly poorly written programs. I also see some apps don't work correctly without Admin permissions for various reasons. An example is Speccy from Piriform, it needs to write cpu-z driver in the temp folder which SRP will block it if run with SUA permissions.


Anyway "VirusTotal Uploader" issue is solved by first installing as Admin and then another time as Standard user. Problem is, I had to white-list a folder in SRP so I could copy the installer and execute it there, not sure if it's the right thing to do? Plus, there might be some other apps that don't install correctly even by this way...

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Re: SUA + SRP, some questions...

Post by Senraeth on 30/7/2010, 20:00

I was able to fix the VirusTotal Uploader issue by installing as Admin and then copying the 'VirusTotal' shortcut from Users\<Admin>\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\SendTo to Users\<User>\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\SendTo. I don't know if that is a better or worse solution than yours, but it worked for me.

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Re: SUA + SRP, some questions...

Post by Sadeghi85 on 30/7/2010, 20:43

Thanks. It's a bit annoying though, that a lot of apps still don't function properly with LUA.

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Re: SUA + SRP, some questions...

Post by ssj100 on 31/7/2010, 12:18

Sadeghi85 wrote:Thanks. It's a bit annoying though, that a lot of apps still don't function properly with LUA.

Perhaps you are just unlucky. The only application I use that doesn't function in my LUA is Starcraft 1 haha. I get around this easily by using SuRun - in my LUA, it automatically launches "starcraft.exe" as admin when it's run. No pop-ups are generated at all and therefore it's very convenient. Of course, "starcraft.exe" connects to the internet for online play and therefore is a potential malware threat-gate. This is why I also force run "starcraft.exe" in a sandbox (with Sandboxie) with relevant restrictions. It's been working flawlessly for over 6 months.

I suspect one wouldn't need to use SuRun to run Starcraft 1 on Windows 7 in a SUA. However, I think there'll always be a UAC pop-up (or you'll always need to manually run it as admin) whenever you run "starcraft.exe".

By the way, the developer has just released Surun 1.2.0.9 Beta 13. As far as I can tell, version 1.2.0.9 is being developed to become (more) compatible with Windows 7. I've been running version 1.2.0.8 on Windows XP flawlessly for over 6 months.


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Re: SUA + SRP, some questions...

Post by Sadeghi85 on 1/8/2010, 00:14

SuRun is excellent Very Happy

I had to delete the SUA account and recreate it to successfully turn off UAC. No need for that SRP white-list folder either. Everything is solved by SuRun, thanks. Very Happy

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Re: SUA + SRP, some questions...

Post by ssj100 on 1/8/2010, 05:07

SuRun is excellent for Windows XP, but I'm not sure if it's so good on Windows 7 (yet). Just noticed on the SuRun forum that you've posted a whole lot of issues with the latest Beta on Windows 7. Good luck with those. I may test it out myself again in the near future and see if I can reproduce your issues.

And unfortunately, that forum isn't very active at all, as the developer must "have a life" haha. There was a period of about 3-4 months (earlier this year) where he disappeared.

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Re: SUA + SRP, some questions...

Post by Sadeghi85 on 1/8/2010, 05:42

ssj100 wrote:SuRun is excellent for Windows XP, but I'm not sure if it's so good on Windows 7 (yet). Just noticed on the SuRun forum that you've posted a whole lot of issues with the latest Beta on Windows 7. Good luck with those. I may test it out myself again in the near future and see if I can reproduce your issues.

Yeah, I spoke a little too soon. Laughing Still, it's a lot better than using UAC imo.

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Re: SUA + SRP, some questions...

Post by Rico on 1/8/2010, 06:40

UAC is not a real security solution FYI, it is not equal in protection as LUA. The way its implemented renders it easily bypassable by deliberate actions of malware when compared to LUA. Smile

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Re: SUA + SRP, some questions...

Post by Sadeghi85 on 1/8/2010, 07:41

Well, I'm not comparing UAC with LUA, I was comparing UAC+LUA+SRP vs SuRun+LUA+SRP

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Re: SUA + SRP, some questions...

Post by Sadeghi85 on 1/8/2010, 08:06

OK, I decided to use both UAC & SuRun. Whatever doesn't work with SuRun, will work with UAC. Very Happy

The only exception so far is Everything which doesn't even start at startup if UAC is enabled, but that's not a problem at all as I pinned it to start menu, when I need it I'll launch it, it will stay at tray till next restart.


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Re: SUA + SRP, some questions...

Post by Sadeghi85 on 1/8/2010, 17:58

Kay replied to my thread at SuRun forum, now I can use some of those apps without UAC.

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Re: SUA + SRP, some questions...

Post by Sadeghi85 on 8/8/2010, 20:13

UPDATE:

I installed a fresh copy of Windows 7 and immediately installed SuRun and created the standard account. Installed all the programs with SuRun and most of the problems I wrote about in the first post and on SuRun forum are solved.

Let's look at the examples I gave above and on SuRun forum:

VirusTotal Uploader: It only creates its shortcuts for current user account, a lot of other programs do the same, but installing them with SuRun fixes the problem because SuRun will elevate the privileges for the CURRENT user account.

Flashget: It gave me this error:


Kay's solution was to change folder permissions for "C:\Program Files\Flashget", it worked, but in this new Windows installation I noticed Flashget works without any change in folder permissions, after a little look here and there I found why: UAC Virtualization

For some reason it wasn't enabled for Flashget on that Windows installation, don't know why.


Good thing is, it can be enabled in Task Manager


Event Viewer shows what Flaghget tried to do:


Gmail Notifier: I found out that the way GN stores the credential is the problem and it had nothing to do with LUA or SuRun, after some searching I noticed that Google Talk is regarded as the better alternative to GN.

Everything: In the next post I'll explain how to create elevated startup shortcuts.

MrBrian explained in this post the problems that happens while using LUA.

1) Some software doesn't work properly. Manual intervention can sometimes salvage the situation. For example, see Flash not working with SRP.
2) If you use a program in two different accounts, you'll usually need to configure the program's settings separately in each account.
3) Switching between different accounts can be a hassle.
4) Some software installs its menu shortcut in the current account only, and thus there is no shortcut to start the program within other accounts. This can be remedied manually.
5) If you want to elevate a program using UAC within a LUA, you normally need to supply a password each time, unless you use techniques such as those hightlighted at Avoid UAC prompts by using an elevated program launcher.
6) If you want to share program data, such as browser favorites, amongst different accounts, you won't be able to use default settings, which would typically result in each account having its own program data. I use a separate data partition, and store my data there, for read/write access by either my admin account or my LUA.
As I said above I found out that some of those problems will be solved by creating the LUA account right after Windows installation and installing all the programs with SuRun. I found another way to avoid UAC prompts and will explain it in the next post.

There is also Aaron Margosis' blog: Fixing "LUA bugs", Part I & Fixing "LUA Bugs", Part II

ssj100 wrote:SuRun is excellent for Windows XP, but I'm not sure if it's so good on Windows 7 (yet). Just noticed on the SuRun forum that you've posted a whole lot of issues with the latest Beta on Windows 7. Good luck with those.

As you see above SuRun is perfect Very Happy neither of those problems had anything to do with SuRun. Very Happy


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Re: SUA + SRP, some questions...

Post by ssj100 on 8/8/2010, 23:28

Good to hear Sadeghi85.

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Re: SUA + SRP, some questions...

Post by Sadeghi85 on 9/8/2010, 03:33

I found out why UAC Virtualization wasn't enabled for Flashget and Everything, that was when I wanted to only use SuRun and turned UAC off. Embarassed

This is another benefit of UAC. If I want to only use SuRun I'll have to change folder permissions which isn't a good idea.

I thought I found a way to create elevated startup shortcuts without using a 3rd party software but that didn't work, however using SuRun it's easy to do. In case of Everything the startup shortcut target needs to be changed from
Code:
"C:\Program Files\Everything\Everything.exe" -startup
to
Code:
C:\Windows\SuRun.exe "C:\Program Files\Everything\Everything.exe" -startup

Smile

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Re: SUA + SRP, some questions...

Post by ssj100 on 25/12/2010, 15:48

Hi Sadeghi85, not sure if you're aware, but SuRun 1.2.0.9 Final has been released after spending over 1 year in Beta!

Download

More information and changelog here (once you go to the link, translate the page to English and then click on the "Download" section):
http://kay-bruns.de/wp/software/surun/

Personally, I'm probably not going to update it, since most of the changes are related to Windows Vista/7 and I'm still happily running XP.

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Re: SUA + SRP, some questions...

Post by Sadeghi85 on 25/12/2010, 17:11

Thank you very much for the heads up, SSJ. I've been using SuRun betas ever since you've introduced me to this awesome app! Updated to final. Smile

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Re: SUA + SRP, some questions...

Post by ssj100 on 28/12/2010, 01:00

No problem Sadeghi85. I changed my mind and updated to 1.2.0.9 on my Windows XP system. All went smoothly.

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