False advertising and hypocrisy...or merely subjective opinion and pride?

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False advertising and hypocrisy...or merely subjective opinion and pride?

Post by ssj100 on 30/4/2010, 09:04

This post was essentially a reply to a discussion regarding firewall "efficiency":
http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=1667940&postcount=48

I personally have tested 6 version of the DW firewall (different engines) and can state that the most advanced version creates same overhead (in terms of user experience) as default Windows XP firewall (that is with HIPS ON !). DW seams to eat more CPU seconds than Wndows FW service, but correct CPU usage is very difficicult to measure exactly (can be hidden under parent/calling processes).

I'm not going to state my experiences in detail here, but I personally have found the DefenseWall User Interface (UI) sluggish at times. Click around the tabs and you'll see what I mean. But in reference to the above quote, a simple post from the lion's mouth (Ilya) clearly rebuts the claim (and certainly is true in my experiences also...not just with Firefox, but also with IE):
http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=1663455&postcount=14

In fact, when I open FF, DW adds about two or three seconds.

Note that in another user's experience (above), it added 6-8 seconds. From memory, opening IE 7 or 8 took about 4-5 seconds longer with DefenseWall installed. Ilya explained at the time that he was unable (or perhaps unwilling...as it might compromise the protection provided) to change this.

And here's where the potential hypocrisy lies (from the same poster):
http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=1668207&postcount=26

I once posted "The damage of fanboys advises" in which I critised the near mythical support some applications got at Wilders.

From the applications I mentioned the SBIE and Comodo users responded most fiercely

Expect some critism and emotional reponses (when you not in favour you are against them)

In the end, there is always an element of subjective opinion and pride in anything you use, support or promote. In my opinion, the above poster is clearly putting forward a strong subjective case that DefenseWall is extremely light...and yet DefenseWall for me causes more noticeable slow-down than a real-time Antivirus like Avira. For example, I never once noticed any slow-down with Avira installed in real-time when opening Firefox or IE. DefenseWall clearly causes at least a 2-3 second slow-down with the opening of these applications, and probably several others.

But then such is the nature of these types of programs. For example (for me), Sandboxie causes about a 1-2 second slow-down on opening Firefox and IE. It used to be 10 seconds or more when I tested it for the first time 2 years ago.

Anyway, just some food for thought when reading other people's recommendations for security software in general (not just DefenseWall). In my opinion, ultimately, RAM, CPU usage, I/O writes/reads etc are not important at all. What's really important is the user's perception of whether something is slower or faster. And, for example, I can tell you that with LUA + SRP enabled, there is no perceptual (or probably even objective) slow-down whatsoever.

But then, is this false advertising and hypocrisy on my part also...or merely subjective opinion and pride? Only one way to find out - go test it yourself!

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Re: False advertising and hypocrisy...or merely subjective opinion and pride?

Post by Guest on 1/5/2010, 10:27

Yes,"subjective" "objective:.
When we are talking about seconds it is hard to tell.

I will say the quote:
"From the applications I mentioned the SBIE and Comodo users responded most fiercely "

Must have been written when at least one DefenceWall Knight of that forum was out sick.

With DefenceWall 256 I did notice a delay not only in browsering,but in WindowsExploxer fuction as well.

Plus interaction with Returnill 2008/ShadowDefender, made me wonder if I was simply toting a albatross.

Another point is iif there was a delay with DefenceWall 256,it seems a faint hope indeed the "new improved" version 3 will be faster given same system.

False advertising/Slick advertising?

Rabinovitch seems to have taken to heart the proverb:
"Why bark when you keep dogs??"

noor

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Re: False advertising and hypocrisy...or merely subjective opinion and pride?

Post by Hawkwind on 1/5/2010, 14:13

Lol, what a thread.

But in reference to the above quote, a simple post from the lion's mouth (Ilya) clearly rebuts the claim
http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=1663455&postcount=14

I dont think Ilya has clearly rebutted the claim as he also said he does not know what could be the cause and asked for a look at DW`s logs.



Rabinovitch seems to have taken to heart the proverb:
"Why bark when you keep dogs??"
The same can be said about Sandboxie, Avira, Avast, Kaspersky etc users salivating about how great there software is.
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What a pride

Post by Guest on 1/5/2010, 15:38

SSJ100,

I missed you at the Wilders Forums, you started your own.

I was kind of worried not to see you posting at Wilders (I have not seen any posts of Easter letely).

Good to see you have not changed a bit.

I will be glad to open discussions with you lol!

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Re: False advertising and hypocrisy...or merely subjective opinion and pride?

Post by ssj100 on 1/5/2010, 16:10

Hi Kees. Yes mate, I missed having discussions with you too. But this forum has only been going for about 2 weeks:

Didn't you hear that I got (IP) banned from the Wilders forum (happened about 6 months ago)? I noticed most of my posts were deleted too, except some Sandboxie related ones - nice way to say: "thanks for your information and contributions...good bye forever".

And no, I still have no idea why I got banned like that. Many people have asked for me, but they have always been turned away with a "mind your own business" reply.

Anyway, good to see you here (and that I finally got your attention haha)...please feel free to post in the introductions thread etc.

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Re: False advertising and hypocrisy...or merely subjective opinion and pride?

Post by ssj100 on 1/5/2010, 16:15

Hawkwind wrote:Lol, what a thread.

But in reference to the above quote, a simple post from the lion's mouth (Ilya) clearly rebuts the claim
http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=1663455&postcount=14

I dont think Ilya has clearly rebutted the claim as he also said he does not know what could be the cause and asked for a look at DW`s logs.



Rabinovitch seems to have taken to heart the proverb:
"Why bark when you keep dogs??"
The same can be said about Sandboxie, Avira, Avast, Kaspersky etc users salivating about how great there software is.

Well, the point was that DefenseWall does cause slow-down, and it's definitely noticeable. Kees had implied that it doesn't cause slow-down at all:

...creates same overhead (in terms of user experience) as default Windows XP firewall (that is with HIPS ON !).

I don't notice any slow-down whatsoever with Windows XP firewall on or off (or with the use of LUA, SRP or DEP...they are all built into the OS! No slow-down with SuRun either by the way). However, with DefenseWall installed, there is definitely slow-down (including in terms of user experience).

As for the rest of your post, they are exactly my points also. And by the way, the same can be said about Shadow Defender also haha. Shadow Defender delays my system boot-up by about 5 seconds (or maybe a bit more) when booting into Shadow Mode. Good thing I would only do that when someone wants to use my computer (to prevent them rebooting and going out of Shadow Mode and potentially screwing up my settings etc).

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Re: False advertising and hypocrisy...or merely subjective opinion and pride?

Post by ssj100 on 28/7/2010, 03:37

By the way Kees, I don't see you commenting on the I/O, RAM etc usage of DefenseWall versions 3.03 and beyond. Could it be because they are much higher? It certainly feels that way, particularly with versions 3.04 and 3.05.

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Re: False advertising and hypocrisy...or merely subjective opinion and pride?

Post by Guest on 13/4/2011, 11:27

ssj100 wrote:By the way Kees, I don't see you commenting on the I/O, RAM etc usage of DefenseWall versions 3.03 and beyond. Could it be because they are much higher? It certainly feels that way, particularly with versions 3.04 and 3.05.

No I did test DW 3 with special drivers and measuring tools. So it was an observation based on real measurements on my setup (for IE8 and Chrome, not Firefox). Since you (the ultimate Sandboxie defender) pointed this out as vanity and hypocrisy, I thought well why trouble anymore.


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Re: False advertising and hypocrisy...or merely subjective opinion and pride?

Post by ssj100 on 13/4/2011, 13:17

It's all (supposed to be) in good spirit though mate. Just trying to stimulate some discussion haha.

How does the latest version perform?

And by the way, I don't consider myself any type of "defender". I always call it as I see it. Sandboxie does slow down the opening (particularly cold starting) of web browsers (Firefox and IE at least) by at least 1-2 seconds. This is an "annoyance" that I have accepted.

Also don't forget that I have pretty much tried everything under the sun when it comes to security software. Sandboxie just happens to be the stand-out performer for me. In fact, I'm pretty sure very knowledgeable people like Sully (who have also tried everything under the sun) agree too.

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Re: False advertising and hypocrisy...or merely subjective opinion and pride?

Post by Guest on 13/4/2011, 16:12

Can't tell you. My mother wanted to get into e-mailing and the internet. So I gave her my old Dell 1501 with DW on it (plus HitmanPro), running on Vista with UAC set to auto elevate. She is born in 1933 and has lot's of time, so even when DW was slow she would not complain.

I have one playing PC which runs CTM plus some software testing for security suppliers which give a free lisence. The other one runs safe-admin (latest laptop) with only Hitman Pro on demand on it (since summer 2010).

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Re: False advertising and hypocrisy...or merely subjective opinion and pride?

Post by Rico on 13/4/2011, 20:48

Haha you guys just resumed a 7 month old thread as if its nothing Surprised

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Re: False advertising and hypocrisy...or merely subjective opinion and pride?

Post by ssj100 on 14/4/2011, 00:13

Rico wrote:Haha you guys just resumed a 7 month old thread as if its nothing Surprised
Yes indeed. Better late than never I guess haha.

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Re: False advertising and hypocrisy...or merely subjective opinion and pride?

Post by EASTER13 on 19/4/2012, 09:01

I missed you at the Wilders Forums, you started your own.

I was kind of worried not to see you posting at Wilders (I have not seen any posts of Easter letely).

Good to see you have not changed a bit.

I will be glad to open discussions with you

How is this for delayed response.

OUCH! Responding to a almost 3 year old discussion. affraid

Anyway i got some major catching up to do and i'm only just now weighing in to peeps who mentioned me. As always you can find me nesting as usual at Wilder's.

Nice Board here ssj100 and i been going over what might be distant posts, but very useful discussions and comparisons.

Regards EASTER

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Re: False advertising and hypocrisy...or merely subjective opinion and pride?

Post by ssj100 on 19/4/2012, 09:32

Welcome EASTER - good to see you here!

By the way, back on topic of this thread discussion, I've been occasionally keeping tabs on DefenseWall. I recently installed in a VM versions 3.17 and 3.18 Beta on Windows XP Pro, 32-bit - I was very disappointed with the slow-down I observed when eg. opening IE and the general sluggishness of the GUI (particularly with the log). I'm fairly certain that the slow-down and sluggishness is even worse than before.

Can any DefenseWall users comment on this? It could be that my hardware is getting old (over 5 years now, Core 2 Duo processor, 2Gb RAM) or that later versions of DefenseWall don't run well in VM's?

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Re: False advertising and hypocrisy...or merely subjective opinion and pride?

Post by EASTER13 on 19/4/2012, 12:59

ssj100 wrote:Welcome EASTER - good to see you here!

By the way, back on topic of this thread discussion, I've been occasionally keeping tabs on DefenseWall. I recently installed in a VM versions 3.17 and 3.18 Beta on Windows XP Pro, 32-bit - I was very disappointed with the slow-down I observed when eg. opening IE and the general sluggishness of the GUI (particularly with the log). I'm fairly certain that the slow-down and sluggishness is even worse than before.

Can any DefenseWall users comment on this? It could be that my hardware is getting old (over 5 years now, Core 2 Duo processor, 2Gb RAM) or that later versions of DefenseWall don't run well in VM's?

Thanks ssj100 for the welcome.

I haven't had a chance myself to try out the latest DefenseWall by Ilya, but your system specs are dangerously close to my own in that respect. I run XP Professional SP2 exclusively with no updates/no patches needed (but i would never recommend that) lol, my RAM is even a shy less then your 2Gb, and i can at least share with you from experiences, that the Virtual Machine very likely could be your chief factor as regards the lag. Now that being said i do recall running DW awhile back and this same system back then, did suffer some noticable lag but nothing that couldn't be overcome with some jockeying of other apps. I wouldn't be a bit surprised ssj100 if it turns out your hardware is wearing down someplace. My system is equal to yours in that it's, uh, 5 years old too. I tried VirtualBox, and it runs reasonably i suppose, but i never could get much work or research done on it for it bogging down the longer i used it.

Hopefully someone with DW can better help point out which it is that might be causing the slowdown, machine or app.

Regards EASTER

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Re: False advertising and hypocrisy...or merely subjective opinion and pride?

Post by Guest on 20/4/2012, 03:27

My own experience when I used Defensewall some time ago was that it didn't "sit" well with my system, I found it awkward to use and it conflicted with some other app (I forget which one now).

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Re: False advertising and hypocrisy...or merely subjective opinion and pride?

Post by ssj100 on 20/4/2012, 08:58

What I do remember is that version 2 and early version 3 of DefenseWall were noticeably sluggish. This was attributed to high I/O read/writes etc. Apparently Ilya made some "tweaks" in later versions to "fix" this - I remember testing these versions and noticing an improvement (this was all tested in a VM). The slow-downs with browser opening persisted, and were slightly worse when compared with GeSWall, BufferZone or Sandboxie.

However, with the latest stable release and the latest Beta version, I'm noticing that this sluggishness is worse than ever. I really dislike slow-downs on my system, so I consider myself very astute for these issues. Slow-down with browser opening (only tested with IE) is now not just noticeably slow on cold starts, but is just as slow with warm starts. With Sandboxie, there is a marginal slow-down with cold starts, but slow-down with warm starts are barely observable.

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