DefenseWall and Sandboxie together?

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DefenseWall and Sandboxie together?

Post by wingman on 4/6/2010, 07:03

Can anyone tell me the correct way to run DefenseWall and Sandboxie together? So if anything escapes the sandbox DefenseWall will catch it.
I have them just running side by side, seems like they get along.
Thanks!
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Re: DefenseWall and Sandboxie together?

Post by ssj100 on 4/6/2010, 07:40

I wouldn't recommend running those two together. Sorry.

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Re: DefenseWall and Sandboxie together?

Post by arran on 4/6/2010, 11:15

Having both sandboxie and defense wall is totally pointless because you can only use 1 at a time to Police the behavior of a running app. For example if you run an app in sandboxie defense wall sits there and does absolutely nothing and Vice-versa.
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Re: DefenseWall and Sandboxie together?

Post by bo.elam on 4/6/2010, 11:51

I am using both and they work nice together in my opinion. Basically
I run FF sandboxed and when I recover files to my hard disk, then its
Defense Wall turn to take over. I like Sbxie better but DW its also very
nice and I feel better protected by having them both than just one of
them. I am no expert like you guys but discovering Sbxie first and then
DW have made my Internet experience much better and much more
enjoyable than before.
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Re: DefenseWall and Sandboxie together?

Post by ssj100 on 4/6/2010, 15:02

bo.elam wrote:I am using both and they work nice together in my opinion. Basically
I run FF sandboxed and when I recover files to my hard disk, then its
Defense Wall turn to take over. I like Sbxie better but DW its also very
nice and I feel better protected by having them both than just one of
them. I am no expert like you guys but discovering Sbxie first and then
DW have made my Internet experience much better and much more
enjoyable than before.
Bo

Yes, that sounds like how I used Sandboxie and DefenseWall for a short period of time in the past - it sounded like a really good idea to me at first. If it works well for you, then so be it and hope it continues to work well!

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Re: DefenseWall and Sandboxie together?

Post by wingman on 5/6/2010, 01:24

bo.elam wrote:I am using both and they work nice together in my opinion. Basically
I run FF sandboxed and when I recover files to my hard disk, then its
Defense Wall turn to take over. I like Sbxie better but DW its also very
nice and I feel better protected by having them both than just one of
them. I am no expert like you guys but discovering Sbxie first and then
DW have made my Internet experience much better and much more
enjoyable than before.
Bo

Do you have a special setting for DW or SBIE, or just install and go?
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Re: DefenseWall and Sandboxie together?

Post by ssj100 on 5/6/2010, 01:32

wingman wrote:
bo.elam wrote:I am using both and they work nice together in my opinion. Basically
I run FF sandboxed and when I recover files to my hard disk, then its
Defense Wall turn to take over. I like Sbxie better but DW its also very
nice and I feel better protected by having them both than just one of
them. I am no expert like you guys but discovering Sbxie first and then
DW have made my Internet experience much better and much more
enjoyable than before.
Bo

Do you have a special setting for DW or SBIE, or just install and go?

You can try untrusting C:\Sandbox. That way, anything you recover out of the sandbox is labelled by DefenseWall as "Untrusted". And registry clutter begins! Also, some file types didn't become untrusted, so I wouldn't completely rely on this method. As I said, these 2 programs aren't meant to be fully compatible with each other. I've been there, done that. Also keep in mind that both programs hook ring 0 (kernel) and therefore the risk of incompatibility/conflict is much higher than average.

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Re: DefenseWall and Sandboxie together?

Post by bo.elam on 5/6/2010, 07:17

ssj100, I know I read some of your posts at the DW forum so I know you
did use then together before but gave up on doing so. On my case there
has been no conflict whatsoever and both are very light and easy on my
computer that its unbelievable all the protection that a user can get for
so little. Neither program has conflicted with any programs that I use and
that includes Avira9( I am turn off by 10) and Avast as of this moment.

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Re: DefenseWall and Sandboxie together?

Post by bo.elam on 5/6/2010, 07:45

Hi Wingman: basically I surf with FF sandboxed and also protected by DW so
when I finish browsing I delete the contents and whatever is recovered its
labeled untrusted by DW. I dont install too many programs so its easy for me
to stay clean. Whatever I DL stays untrusted for a few days and afterward
I either delete them or change the status to trusted. I am running DW with the
default settings and on Sandboxie I only allow Firefox to have access to the
Internet and to run/start. Since I run as an Administrator I also have the "Drop
my rights" restriction selected. I also have FF as a "leader program" and the
"Delete invocation" is on and that's it. It s easy and it works real nice for me.
This programs together are so nice on my system that I don't feel any difference
when I am using them both or none.
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Re: DefenseWall and Sandboxie together?

Post by ssj100 on 5/6/2010, 08:23

Clearly you are biased towards your setup, as using both Sandboxie and DefenseWall will most certainly slow down the opening of (at least) Firefox etc. Sandboxie alone already causes at least a 1-2 second slow-down for me, which is tolerable. But then you state you "don't feel any difference", which is purely subjective.

You also state "that its unbelievable all the protection that a user can get for so little". Again, very subjective, as you are already using more real-time security software than myself - I personally only use Sandboxie, and I combine that with the extremely powerful built-in security measures of the Windows OS. And relatively speaking, this is arguably better protection (default-deny is extremely powerful since "if it can't execute, it can't infect) for even less! Not to mention that DefenseWall comes with an annual fee to continue updates.

Also, I don't believe there is any observable conflict when using Sandboxie and DefenseWall, but there are possibly/probably some hidden conflicts when using software in combination like this. Sometimes we don't even know something is conflicting (eg. protection is cancelling each other out) since we never actually get infected haha.

Furthermore, there is no guarantee that files you recover out of the sandbox will open untrusted by DefenseWall (even though they are labelled untrusted) - the classic example is if Windows Picture and Fax Viewer is your default picture viewer - in order to open picture files untrusted, you'll have to right click and manually run them as untrusted. Simply double clicking the file will open it trusted (despite it being labelled untrusted by DefenseWall).

Anyway, it appears that you are happily using both Sandboxie and DefenseWall in real-time. It is not something I would personally recommend however, for many many reasons.

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Re: DefenseWall and Sandboxie together?

Post by wingman on 6/6/2010, 01:29

bo.elam wrote:Hi Wingman: basically I surf with FF sandboxed and also protected by DW so
when I finish browsing I delete the contents and whatever is recovered its
labeled untrusted by DW. I dont install too many programs so its easy for me
to stay clean. Whatever I DL stays untrusted for a few days and afterward
I either delete them or change the status to trusted. I am running DW with the
default settings and on Sandboxie I only allow Firefox to have access to the
Internet and to run/start. Since I run as an Administrator I also have the "Drop
my rights" restriction selected. I also have FF as a "leader program" and the
"Delete invocation" is on and that's it. It s easy and it works real nice for me.
This programs together are so nice on my system that I don't feel any difference
when I am using them both or none.
Bo

I noticed with DW 3.02 beta thing are running faster, finally! I have licenses for both and hate waste by not using, this is why I would like to keep running them together + security! Thank for the advise.
SSJ- Thank you too. Can you show the how the registry fills up with DW? I don't doubt you, just curious.
One thing I notice about both programs when uninstalling, they leave tons of unneeded entries.
From your last post you seem to have a prejudice opinion of DW. That's cool, but why shoot it down if it works for some?
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Re: DefenseWall and Sandboxie together?

Post by ssj100 on 6/6/2010, 01:42

Hi wingman, DefenseWall continually creates registry entries by having the rollback list enabled. I don't think this causes any significant slow-downs (especially on modern systems) but it's simply the nature of the program - it works in the REAL system and registry and thus everything accumulates in the REAL system and registry. With Sandboxie, you can empty everything with a couple of clicks - it's more "true virtualisation", unlike DefenseWall.

I'm not sure if you've understood everything I've been talking about - I've justified why I dislike DefenseWall. Trust me, I was as enthusiastic as the next person when I tested it out last year. Unfortunately, DefenseWall didn't stay on my system for much longer than a few days at a time. Anyway, just because I dislike it doesn't mean everyone has to. Just stating my opinion about it, and this is what the heart of this forum is about. But not like this:
http://ssj100.fullsubject.com/comodo-f12/the-sad-state-of-constructive-criticism-t51.htm#226

I remember going through that phase where I was very enthusiastic about using Sandboxie and DefenseWall in combination by untrusting C:\Sandbox. Unfortunately, recovering some file types like .xml out of C:\Sandbox would still open as "trusted". Also, as I've stated, there's still the issue of opening newly introduced files by simply double clicking on them - they may open trusted despite being labelled by DefenseWall as untrusted (it's the same for GeSWall and Sandboxie). But with Sandboxie, you can circumvent this issue by opening newly introduced files via a sandboxed explorer.exe.

EDIT: by the way, I always keep an open mind, unlike many people on other forums where they swear they will NEVER use certain software again. I still occasionally test the latest versions of DefenseWall in my VM. But for me, that's where DefenseWall will stay for now, and most likely forever, since it doesn't have a 64-bit version (and therefore arguably doesn't have a future).

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Re: DefenseWall and Sandboxie together?

Post by wingman on 6/6/2010, 02:08

ssj100 wrote:Hi wingman, DefenseWall continually creates registry entries by having the rollback list enabled. I don't think this causes any significant slow-downs (especially on modern systems) but it's simply the nature of the program - it works in the REAL system and registry and thus everything accumulates in the REAL system and registry. With Sandboxie, you can empty everything with a couple of clicks - it's more "true virtualisation", unlike DefenseWall.

I'm not sure if you've understood everything I've been talking about - I've justified why I dislike DefenseWall. Trust me, I was as enthusiastic as the next person when I tested it out last year. Unfortunately, DefenseWall didn't stay on my system for much longer than a few days. Anyway, just because I dislike it doesn't mean everyone has to. Just stating my opinion about it, and this is what the heart of this forum is about. But not like this:
http://ssj100.fullsubject.com/comodo-f12/the-sad-state-of-constructive-criticism-t51.htm#226

I remember going through that phase where I was very enthusiastic about using Sandboxie and DefenseWall in combination by untrusting C:\Sandbox. Unfortunately, recovering some file types like .xml out of C:\Sandbox would still open as "trusted". Also, as I've stated, there's still the issue of opening newly introduced files by simply double clicking on them - they may open trusted despite being labelled by DefenseWall as untrusted (it's the same for GeSWall and Sandboxie). But with Sandboxie, you can circumvent this issue by opening newly introduced files via a sandboxed explorer.exe.



Have you given 3.02 a go? Seems faster to me, my system is older then five years, but I have put every upgrade possible without shelling out for a whole new system, wanted to avoid Vista like the plague.
I would be interested in your opinion.
Right now I have OPSS version 7, sandboxie, ShadowDefender (only use when I visit creepy, untrusted sites, very rarely) and now experimenting with DW along side all of this mess.
I know it's an overkill, but I have been back and forward with SBIE and DW. I just wish there was some data of which one does a better job. Just like Firewall (only) testing (never going to happen). I like it better when companies competed (the good old days), by not being afraid to say if the other one is crap, not this; I don't want to step on your toes, because it might offend you.

Sorry about the rambling, just showing my age.
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Re: DefenseWall and Sandboxie together?

Post by ssj100 on 6/6/2010, 02:13

I'm not sure what you're noticing with "Seems faster to me". What exactly is faster? For me, the GUI is still a little sluggish and there's still the usual slight slow down with opening browsers etc. To be honest, these slight inconveniences are not really the main reasons why I don't use DefenseWall.

It's really up to you mate - try things out and eventually (hopefully) you'll find what you're looking for. I eventually did haha.

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Re: DefenseWall and Sandboxie together?

Post by wingman on 6/6/2010, 02:27

ssj100 wrote:I'm not sure what you're noticing with "Seems faster to me". What exactly is faster? For me, the GUI is still a little sluggish and there's still the usual slight slow down with opening browsers etc. To be honest, these slight inconveniences are not really the main reasons why I don't use DefenseWall.

It's really up to you mate - try things out and eventually (hopefully) you'll find what you're looking for. I eventually did haha.

Browsers open faster then the 3.01 version.
One big issue was the slow-down with FirstDefense, do you use this program (what a life-saver)? Making a snap-shot took about 5 minutes with DW installed, what use to take a minute without it, there is some improvement. This is with SBIE installed.
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Re: DefenseWall and Sandboxie together?

Post by ssj100 on 6/6/2010, 03:56

wingman wrote:
ssj100 wrote:I'm not sure what you're noticing with "Seems faster to me". What exactly is faster? For me, the GUI is still a little sluggish and there's still the usual slight slow down with opening browsers etc. To be honest, these slight inconveniences are not really the main reasons why I don't use DefenseWall.

It's really up to you mate - try things out and eventually (hopefully) you'll find what you're looking for. I eventually did haha.

Browsers open faster then the 3.01 version.
One big issue was the slow-down with FirstDefense, do you use this program (what a life-saver)? Making a snap-shot took about 5 minutes with DW installed, what use to take a minute without it, there is some improvement. This is with SBIE installed.

Nice that you're noticing browsers opening faster - it's funny how there's often no intention of the developer to improve things like that but we notice improvements anyway haha.

And no I don't use FirstDefense in my setup but I've played with it before and agree it's a great program (the original FD-ISR particularly).

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Re: DefenseWall and Sandboxie together?

Post by wingman on 6/6/2010, 05:14

ssj100 wrote:
wingman wrote:
ssj100 wrote:I'm not sure what you're noticing with "Seems faster to me". What exactly is faster? For me, the GUI is still a little sluggish and there's still the usual slight slow down with opening browsers etc. To be honest, these slight inconveniences are not really the main reasons why I don't use DefenseWall.

It's really up to you mate - try things out and eventually (hopefully) you'll find what you're looking for. I eventually did haha.

Browsers open faster then the 3.01 version.
One big issue was the slow-down with FirstDefense, do you use this program (what a life-saver)? Making a snap-shot took about 5 minutes with DW installed, what use to take a minute without it, there is some improvement. This is with SBIE installed.

Nice that you're noticing browsers opening faster - it's funny how there's often no intention of the developer to improve things like that but we notice improvements anyway haha.

And no I don't use FirstDefense in my setup but I've played with it before and agree it's a great program (the original FD-ISR particularly).



Actually, Ilya is a very helpful if there is a question or a bug he go's to great lengths to help. Truz on the other hand wont even bother to answer a beginner until it has been filter by Guest10 or other helpful people. I must say support service goes to Ilya.
But I must say I like SBIE over DW for now.
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Re: DefenseWall and Sandboxie together?

Post by ssj100 on 6/6/2010, 05:29

I personally find both are equally helpful. Tzuk has much more work at his forum than Ilya too - if you compare the DefenseWall forum with the Sandboxie one, I think there are at least 4 times (sometimes 10 times or more) as many posts on the Sandboxie forum per day. Therefore, Tzuk has to rely on people like Guest10, Buster, etc...and sometimes myself haha.

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Re: DefenseWall and Sandboxie together?

Post by bo.elam on 6/6/2010, 05:47

ssj100 you right when you say that using DW also adds a couple extra seconds
for the browser to open but to me that's not important. Being safe( no infections)
is what matters and they both are doing it together. I installed Sbxie first and
since that day infections don't happen but I feel if I had installed DW first the
situation will be same.
Like I said before I like Sbxie better but both are great programs and if one of
them was messing things up I would uninstall it real quick so I am not biased
in any way to the simple set up that I am using.
I dont have the learning of Windows that you have and only being learning about
security for a short time but enough time for me to learn the basics of how to
stay clean by using programs like the ones we are talking about.
Anyway ssj100, I am a rookie so don't hit me too hard.
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Re: DefenseWall and Sandboxie together?

Post by ssj100 on 6/6/2010, 05:55

Hey bo.elam, not hitting anyone mate. But seriously, you are not a rookie. I believe the fact that you've even heard of Sandboxie and DefenseWall mean that you're already well above average!

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Re: DefenseWall and Sandboxie together?

Post by Guest on 6/6/2010, 08:58

@Wingman

Hello Wingman!!

I understand you only use ShadowDefender ondemand (most folks seem to),but do you still have it start with Windows?

In other words do you have ShadowDefender,Sandboxie,and DefenceWall all starting at boot up?

Thanks,
noor

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Re: DefenseWall and Sandboxie together?

Post by wingman on 6/6/2010, 10:15

noorismail wrote:@Wingman

Hello Wingman!!

I understand you only use Shadow Defender ondemand (most folks seem to),but do you still have it start with Windows?

In other words do you have ShadowDefender,Sandboxie,and DefenceWall all starting at boot up?

Thanks,
noor

ShadowDefender starts with windows, but not in shadow mode. Only once in a while will I use shadow mode, like browsing gov's sites or other baddies.
It does work having all three, including "Shadow Mode" working at once no conflict's. Plus I have MBRguard, install don't even know it's there, and surprising it does not interfere with FirstDefense-ISR . Right now I have SBIE and ShadowDefender (shawdow mode) and DW.
XPSP-3 Pent4 3.60GHz 3.0GBRAM
Like ssj said it may be to much! I love how light SBIE is, love the way DW protects out of the box, the whole system.
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Re: DefenseWall and Sandboxie together?

Post by Guest on 6/6/2010, 11:32

Thanks wingman!!

I know what you mean about MBRGuard,I instaled it a week or so ago,and didn't even remember to add it to my signature,it is "set it,forget it".

Only the entry in Add/Remove programs reminds me it is there!
(Shows there as Blue Ridge Networks BootGuard.)

I have less RAM than you,and I pretty much stay in ShadowMode.

noor


Last edited by noorismail on 6/6/2010, 11:35; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : dang ole spellin)

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Re: DefenseWall and Sandboxie together?

Post by Guest on 6/6/2010, 19:02

I'm no expert, I'll state that from the outset Smile
I've tried Defensewall but didn't feel comfortable using it, It seemed to slow my (older) system down and I never quite knew where I was with it (which I believe wasn't necessarily the fault of the program) but I "felt" less secure (which was significant for me)
I feel comfortable with Sandboxie and Shadow Defender being able to empty the bin (Sandboxie) or "back to how I was on re-boot" (Shadow Defender) ( easily understood concepts even for people who do not have a great technical knowlege of computers)
I choose to "empty my bin" manually
I feel even someone that is fairly new to computers could use Sandboxie or Shadow Defender and be more secure, I have often seen friends familiarize themselves (and be comfortable) to a reasonable degree with the workings of Sandboxie within an hour
Regarding tzuk and Sandboxie:
tzuk is absolutely dedicated to his product, he runs a very active forum which he monitors and responds to well (often updating the Sandboxie beta in hours in response to user input/posts on board), he answers his emails and pms and has his finger right on the pulse at all times. His rolling beta is right on the cutting edge, He listens and resonds to to all legitimate argument from his usership and that is how sandboxie has become such a wonderful product.
I would feel strange now using a pc without Sandboxie.

I think the point is that Sandboxie is extremely popular because it can be used and understood (to a working degree) by virtually anybody and gives considerable protection at a default level.
I don't think the same is true of Defensewall.
Not that I think Defensewall is a bad product, it's just not for me.
For me the slowdowns with Defensewall and my uncertainty just spoiled my Sandboxie "experience" running them both at the same time.

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Re: DefenseWall and Sandboxie together?

Post by bo.elam on 6/6/2010, 22:22

Hi Patrick Sandboxie gives you considerable protection at default level
like you said but you ll be much more protected if you make just a few
changes to harden the sandbox.
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